Internet Governance Forum 2 November 2006 Emerging Issues Panel

 Note: The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the
 The Inaugural Meeting of the IGF, in Athens. Although it is largely accurate,
 in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or
 transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings
 at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

 >>CHAIRMAN TSANAKAS:  This is the last meeting that we have here. I'd like to
 welcome you all to this last session on to Internet governance, and it must be
 said that this forum was an ideal area for us to develop democratic dialogue
 between all of those involved in all the stakeholders, the governments, the
 private sector, information society, the academic and research community. It is
 my belief that all of us have been able to express either personally or
 collectively one's views as to the present situation and the future of the
 Internet. So today's meeting is being dedicated more specifically to young
 people, because as was declared by the prime minister in his inaugural speech
 to this forum, by being able to implement a common vision to reinforce the
 Internet as well as the information society, this is of great importance to us
 all, but of great importance especially to future generations. So in the panel
 this evening, as you can see, we have representatives of the younger
 generation. And the discussion will be coordinated by Ms. Afaf Belhouchet. You
 have the floor.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  (No audio.)  It's on. Okay. Thank you. Excuse me. Yes, of
 course, this is a session for young people. So Internet is not something which
 we have to think about or engender. It's already with us. So the Internet
 generation does not see this as new technology, but a modus VIVENDI, basically,
 whereby through and across countries and continents, they can exchange
 experiences. So the panel of young people we have here with us this afternoon
 will help us understand what is the objective whereby Internet can act as an
 area for future generations and how it can in fact accompany us in our everyday
 lives. So I do think that some of you will have received numbers. We're going
 to draw lots, draw out the numbers to see how you're going to participate. So
 if you get -- this is a video conferencing venture, and with Peru, Chile,
 Mexico. We have young people coming in to, in fact, intervene and discuss with
 us. The first person I will give the floor to is Maja Andjelkovic. And she is
 going to talk to us how in the process, since 2002, over the past few years,
 things have progressed, she will be giving us her experience on this. Over to
 you.

 >>MAJA ANDJELKOVIC:  Hello, everyone. And welcome to the session on emerging
 issues. My name is Maja Andjelkovic with the international institute for
 sustainable development. I'd like to thank all of you in the room for staying
 around with us this afternoon in spite of the beautiful Greek sun that's out
 there today. And I'd also like to invite you to give a round of applause to the
 secretariat and the government -- sorry, the Greek organizers of the forum, and
 also not government of Canada and the international telecommunications union
 for making the participation of today's panelists possible. [ Applause ]

 >>MAJA ANDJELKOVIC:  And the title of this session is rather general, since
 most of what we've talked about this week can probably be classified as
 emerging. But it's been delegated to young people who are almost graduated out
 of the demographic. Since one of the principles of sustainable development is
 recognizing the need for intergenerational linkages, the session is meant to
 help create a discussion space for topics around sustainability and the
 Internet governance debate. So in this room today, we have a number of young
 people who are each experts in narrow and diverse fields related to Internet
 governance. And our role collectively today is to create a discussion with all
 of you and those of you who are not here but are using the Internet to connect
 remotely. And the way that we've structured the session is that we'll have each
 person do the following:  One, complete the sentence, "The change I seek is."
 Fill in the blank. Two, talk about what they are doing to bring about that
 change. And, three, make a concrete suggestion to the Internet Governance Forum
 and to all of us in the room on how we can together facilitate the change
 between today and the next time that we meet in Rio. So with that, I'll hand it
 over to Gbenga Sesan from Nigeria, who is representing the international
 telecommunication youth network.

 >>GBENGA SESAN:  Thank you, Maja. The change I seek is an equalization of
 access. The reason is very simple. We presently speak of a Digital divide, but
 I'm personally afraid that in the next few years, if care is not taken, the
 divide may get wider. The reason is simple. A young man or a young lady in the
 global south pays so much for access, and the access is not even fair or even
 good enough. Meanwhile, that young person's colleague in the global north has
 access both to the Internet and to the resources. And the problem is, in the
 next few years, while we speak of emerging issues, there is a possibility that
 the young person who doesn't have access today gets into more trouble not only
 education, but also because the Internet has become central to our lives in
 everything we do. And speaking about what I do presently about this, in
 Nigeria, we have a group of young people called parliament of Nigeria. And the
 reason we came together, because one of us was in a meeting and he raised his
 hand to ask a question in a policy meeting like this and the moderator told him
 to keep quiet for one very simple reason. He said, what do you know as a young
 person except music and women. And we thought that was quite embarrassing, but
 not only embarrassing, but because they had been kept out of the whole process.
 But when you speak about sustainability of a process, the only proof that
 everything we do here would success and still be available tomorrow is how we
 invest in young people. We came together and said we need to do something about
 it, cooperating with other countries from Africa and came together to form a
 youth network. On the global level, we also have the ITU youth network, which
 is for young people who go to ITU youth forum projects and have come together
 to do different projects, research, and, of course, practical projects. And
 speaking about what exactly we're asking from IGF, I would say it's very
 simple. We know at the moment the whole world has subscribed to the Millennium
 Development Goals. We have eight points on that list. We are asking that we
 need to draw attention to access. We are saying very simply that access should
 become a fundamental human right, because the truth is, if you keep a young
 person from food, he would likely die. If you keep him from access or you keep
 her from access, then the person would not be alive in the real sense of the
 word in the next few years. Because the truth is, he lacks access to
 information, lacks access to resources and to opportunities for growth. So how
 about the opportunity of adding one more item to the list of the MDGs and
 having number nine and saying access that is universal access for every child
 in every country, regardless of where they live or the language they speak.
 Thank you. And I -- I will just ask my friend Itir to please continue. [
 Applause ]

 >>ITIR AKDOGAN:  Thank you, Gbenga, I am Itir Akdogan from turkey. I am
 currently living in Finland, doing my Ph.D. on the future of electronic
 citizenship at the university of Helsinki. The change I am seeking is equally
 enabled electronic citizens who will be aware of their rights and
 responsibilities and who will participate more in governance processes,
 including Internet governance. What I am doing for that is my second answer.
 Previously, I have been coordinating youth capacity-building projects in turkey
 in local and national level, in partnership with multistakeholders at national
 and international level as well. So together with my colleagues, we have been
 training young people, thousands of young people, with the emphasis of ICT for
 development. And I am a member of WSIS youth caucus since the first phase. And
 after each event, we have been organizing national or local events in order to
 first inform local youth about what is going on at an international level, at
 international level. And, second, to get their contribution to the events, to
 the process. And now I am working in academic level. I -- as a Ph.D. student. I
 have to, in fact. I am teaching e-citizenship to undergrads, mostly undergrads
 who are doing their exchange programs. What I want IGF to do is to sincerely
 work and put an effort to bring more people in the virtual world. I am not
 discouraged to see this four something billion people who are disconnected when
 I see how short time we need to reach one-billion-something people. This --
 maybe we are not that patient, because we are online, but when you look at it,
 it has been very quick. So if -- and this one billion-something people who are
 researched now, who are online, we didn't have a structured strategy to get
 them online, because we didn't know. But now that we have little experience in
 this few years, I think if you want, we can have much more people connected in
 shorter time. To be concrete, I want to see three billion people online in Rio.
 And, like, next to the access, I want to also see that at least half of them
 using ICTs effectively, both technically and content-wise. Thank you. And I
 give the floor now to my friend Steve. [ Applause ]

 >>STEVE VASLOO:  Thanks, Itir. Good afternoon. I am Steve Vasloo from south
 Africa. I am currently a research fellow at Stanford University in California.
 And my particular experience is in local content and e-government. The change I
 seek is a generation of underserved youth who are empowered to participate in a
 digital world. And what I mean by that is, one, that they have the access and
 the skills and the freedom to create their own local content. And, two, that
 they are aware of their rights and responsibilities and risks on the Internet.
 What I'm doing to get there, I am currently developing the Digital Hero Book
 Project. I'm not sure if you can see this. This is a picture of Ntombi. She is
 from a small town in South Africa. She is holding up a hero book. That's a
 process that's been happening down there where we get youth to tell their
 stories. We focus on their strengths and on their real-life experiences. Her
 story is about life growing up in a poor, underserved community in South
 Africa, a community that's deeply affected by HIV/AIDS. Her mother also died
 when she was young. She's been through a lot. This process has helped to
 articulate that, but also to focus her goals, which are to be a teacher one
 day. So when she -- when that photo was taken, she said, yes, I'm strong. I can
 reach my goals. And I want my experiences and my story to help other youth. So
 NTOMBI, along with thousands of other youth in 13 sub-Saharan African countries
 have been going through this but have no way to contact each other. The Digital
 Hero Project hopes to change that through getting these youth to go online
 through digital story-telling and to provide a safe social networking space for
 them to connect with other youth from around the world. So it's about building
 capacity, teaching those rights and responsibilities, and also providing a
 platform to create local content. The change -- or, rather, what I need for the
 IGF in Rio is to please keep talking about access. No access, no Digital Hero
 Book Project. And further, to keep having discussions that explore ways of
 creating safe and free, as in free expression, spaces online for youth. Thank
 you. [ Applause ]

 >>HIMANSHU KALRA:  Thank you, Steve. Good afternoon. My name is Himanshu, and
 I'm from India. I'm representing my organization called -- I have been
 following this discussion on Internet governance for the past few months, and
 the change I seek is I want to see more democratic way of defining policies and
 regulations. To have this entire discussion more consultative and more
 representative of voices from around the world and different stakeholders. In
 this context, I feel that the voices of students and youth, despite being the
 avid users of I.T., are rarely considered for policy-making, even though these
 are the groups who are going to be most affected in any change in the
 governance. Hence, my suggestion is to aware the youth, empower the youth, and
 involve them in these discussions, because they are the decision-makers of
 tomorrow. How we can do it is very simply by introducing this course on
 Internet governance at the university level in developed countries and
 developing countries both. Why I'm saying developed countries as well, because
 I feel that the primary philosophy of more equitable access needs to be
 understood by these countries. And youth in the developed countries needs to be
 sensitized to the issues in developing countries. Hundreds, we need to define
 the -- a dynamic course, keeping in mind the local sensitivities. My suggestion
 to IGF is, like, having -- involving youth, youth empowerment, and youth
 capacity-building in the agenda for Rio, and that's it. Thank you. [ Applause ]

 >>DIOGO ANDRE ASSUMPCAO:  Hello. I'm Diogo from Brazil. The change I seek on
 the Internet, to have a Internet with a dynamic flow of knowledge, meaning that
 everyone has physical access to the Internet, access to the meaningful content,
 as local content, as Steve said, and freedom to create, share, and modify
 knowledge. That's the change I seek. And what I am doing to get there, that
 through my organization, my youth organization in Brazil, we support and foster
 youth participation in different processes and projects, and also to build
 their own projects. And on every project we build, we force that that change we
 want is already being applied on that project. And I am also a techie, for I
 worked for a telecom for quite a few years. So I'm also involved in the
 technical side of the Internet. And also that helps getting -- making the way
 to the change. My suggestion to the next IGF is actually a very practical one.
 I want to see there at the IGF, at the event, a Web innovation village, which
 is an environment where people will be able to create and share knowledge and
 also experience the actual change, innovation we are seeking at the event. As
 Mr. Kahn said, the digital objects model, we could be experiencing that model
 in a digital village inside the IGF, so people who wasn't sure about what it
 was, you could just go there and see themselves. Because seeing a presentation
 is one thing, and using technology is a different thing. So that's it. Thank
 you. [ Applause ]

 >>ANTONIOS BROUMAS:  Thank you very much.  I am Antonios from Greece, and for
 the past months I have been actively involved in the organization of the Athens
 IGF meeting.  So for any problems that you have encountered, I am the one to
 blame [ Laughter ]

 >>ANTONIOS BROUMAS:  I am an attorney with postgraduate studies on Internet
 law.  And my scientific research has been focused on models of governance,
 models for governing information, knowledge and culture in the digital age. I
 consider this case of governance very important, because it actually determines
 the political economy of our whole information society. The question who
 controls knowledge, information and culture and the question who has access to
 it is actually the questions that determine the power relations in our
 Information Society. And the other case also is that today's economies are
 depending more and more on intellectual instead of on tangible goods. So I
 would like to argue that before the emergence of the Internet, intellectual
 property law was actually the main source of Regulation in our model of
 governing knowledge.  But today, this is not the case.  Since the emergence of
 the Internet, other sources of Regulation have taken its place.  And these are
 mainly contract law and code.  And by the term "code," I want to refer to
 software or hardware that actually regulates our behavior on the Internet.  And
 the most prominent case is digital rights management. I believe that these two
 sources of Regulation have actually removed the traditional -- the limitations,
 the exceptions that exist in the traditional intellectual property law
 doctrine, and therefore, they constitute an impediment for future innovation.
 And this is a problem in general for development.  It's not , in my opinion, a
 sustainable model for socioeconomic development. There are two ways to change
 this in the future.  One, in my opinion, is more access to knowledge, and a
 second is to provide more emphasis on alternative information production.  And
 by that term I refer to all those forms of information production,
 noncommercial and participatory information production that were made possible
 through the net.  And some prominent examples are Wikipedia, Creative Commons,
 blogs, and open access publishing, the free and open software, et cetera. So we
 need also the appropriate public policies that will encourage these new forms
 of information production.  Like the intellectual property which is a certain
 public policy, to encourage commercial information production. I believe that
 the venues of dialogue such as the IGF are most appropriate to -- for such a
 discussion of how knowledge should be governed, because they are the proper
 venues to say experiences and ideas and to build up consensus between all
 stakeholders and are more faithful to WSIS principles. Thank you, and I give
 the floor to colleague Nirmal Busgopaul [ Applause ]

 >>NIRMAL BUSGOPAUL:  Thank you, Antonios. Good afternoon, everybody.  My name
 is Nirmal Busgopaul.  I am from Mauritius, small country, part of Africa, where
 I (inaudible) law and I am actually volunteering for a nongovernmental
 organization Internet Child Safety Foundation. So the first question is what
 change I want to see.  I would like to have more -- I would like to see more
 young persons involved in the promotion of safer use of Internet.  We all know
 that young persons are the biggest users of Internet.  So if we can incorporate
 young persons to promote safe use of Internet, this will definitely create an
 impact. So what I am doing presently to achieve this goal, being part of
 Internet Child Safety Foundation, we have started with a campaign on safer use
 of Internet in the SCDC region in Africa.  So we have produced materials like
 posters, pamphlets, bookmarks, among others, to raise awareness.  So we go to
 schools, colleges and cyber cafes as well to promote safer use of Internet to
 warn of the dangers that can be found online and to provide also some basic
 guidelines, what a young person can do when encountering such materials. So
 what I would like IGF to do is to consider -- is to provide young persons a
 mean to promote safe use of Internet. How we can do that is to organize
 workshops and build -- to provide capacity building of young persons on issues
 like e-commerce, gaming, and what software have a label to prevent such
 materials. I would also like the IGF to consider the creation of the idea of
 the Internet watchdog where the Internet watchdog can receive complaints about
 any matters that are illegal in one jurisdiction or legal in another
 jurisdiction and take appropriate actions. Thank you [ Applause ]

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  I would like to thank you all.  And having heard your
 thoughts, we realize that we still have a lot of things to do before we can
 guarantee accessibility. And I think many people are surprised by the vital
 necessity which is Internet access for people in the south.  Because the
 Internet is a need which perhaps can be put up there alongside medicine and
 health care and other such. So what I propose now is a system for calling
 speakers to take the floor. I think I'm just going to give out numbers.  6,
 number 6, are you there? Well, I can't see number 6.  Someone else?  27. 
 Number 27. Okay.  Perhaps we should do this in a different way. If you want to
 ask a question, just raise your hand.  Please the floor is yours.

 >>FRANCIS MUGUET:  I am from the Civil Society on Scientific Information.  My
 name is Francis Muguet. On emerging issues, I'd like to make a first comment on
 the procedures we could have already used. From the summit we have a text that
 says we could be adopting recommendations on emerging issues.  So what we need
 to do is adopt rules of procedures in order to be able to adopt these
 recommendations at Rio.  Because the possibility was there, and perhaps it
 hasn't been stressed enough, because I think it is good to have recommendations
 on emerging issues. Now, on the substance of what we have been discussing here,
 there are three million people, three billion people who would like to
 participate.  Well, maybe there is a technology that would allow that. What
 about domain names?  This is a problem that we should be dealing with.  And
 it's a governance issue as well. So we should not in any case give people the
 opportunity to turn the Internet into a police area.  But we should be looking
 at governance.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Well, this is a subject that has been discussed a lot
 outside the meetings as well.  Access is a relative issue because we have
 talked about access, access to culture, copyright. But we must make certain
 that copyright, for example, intellectual rights are protected while allowing
 for access. We have heard about e-citizens and Internet citizens.  Should we
 drawing up a charter, an international charter for the Internet citizen?  Maybe
 that's an idea to pursue. Steve, would you like to answer is that?

 >>STEVE VOSLOO:  Thank you. I'm not sure if I can answer the question directly.
  More just a comment on Francis's question and comment, thank you. To speak
 about emerging issues is -- it is difficult.  We brainstormed these sessions
 and thought about all the various things we could speak about.  And of course
 there are many. So it is true what you are saying.  Our kind of approach was to
 look at our experience and things that have come out in our projects that are
 dear and real to us. But a gentlemen good recommendation on how to actually
 formalize the adoption of these recommendations. Thank you.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Other questions.

 >>ROBERT:  Yes, good afternoon.  My name is Robert Gera {sp?}.  I am with a
 Canadian NGO called Privatera. I have a two-part question.  There were many
 comments in regards to capacity building training exercises that many of you
 do.  What would have been the one resource that if you had had more of, you
 could have trained more people?  And secondly, what is the one resource that
 you think is most needed for the future in regards to emerging issues?  Thank
 you.

 >>ITIR AKDOGAN:  Thank you for the question.  I have been doing these trainings
 for a long time and the need number one is money.  I'm sorry to say it directly
 but of course if you have money, you can train more and more people. And the
 second thing is when you work with youth, the main problem is there is a big
 circulation.  You can't always get the same youth.  You can have a program of
 training, like let's say ten trainings, but then it is not always possible to
 have the same youth to continue the whole ten training and finish it. So maybe
 apart from money, you will need to have the system of getting the same youth
 for them to benefit the maximum from the training. I don't know if any of the
 panelists want to add to that.

 >> I am from Qatar.  I am Darush Amadi {sp?} from Qatar University.  I would
 like to speak in Arabic. I think the time has come for to us take the floor. 
 Over the past three years -- over the past three days, we have only listened to
 just a few young people, and I think the time has come to give them the floor.
 You know, I move 50, and I think most people in the room are over 40 and I
 think that's the case for most of the panelists over the past three days. And
 people using the Internet are normally very young. So is there a way for us to
 open up this discussion to people who are under 20, who are between 10 and 20
 years of age, and who are the main people using the Internet today? We'd like
 to know what their point is.  What do they think of accessibility, access,
 governance?  Of course, there is their parental authority because we say, well,
 they are underage and they are very young.  But that's a way to marginalize
 them.  And I think we need to find a way to give them a voice. This is a need
 which doesn't have a voice and should have because it's very important that
 they are able to speak.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Yes, well, I have to say that the objective of this session
 right now is that they participate more fully.  And I hope that you will find
 that the way we've organized things is fairly efficient. Perhaps the U.N.
 representative could answer this question.

 >>CHAIRMAN DESAI:  I'm least competent to answer this question.  I'm probably
 the oldest person in this room. [ Laughter ]

 >>CHAIRMAN DESAI:  But certainly, I think it is a medium of young people.  It
 is something where we need to engage with them.  Because quite often the issues
 which we think are important are not necessarily what they think is important.
 I have been hearing them, and I have been impressed by how strong is the focus
 on access as an issue.  And surely, I think we are to find ways.  We try to do
 this year, and I hope there are many more young people in the audience, younger
 than me, who can participate in this and join in the discussion. But I think we
 should precipitate the lesson and bring more young people into the process.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  121.  Does someone have 121?  Yes.  You have the floor.

 >> I am (saying name), I am the president of Cyber Law Asia and Cyber Law
 India.  I have one major concern which I wanted to put to the panel which I
 think is an emerging area. We have with great difficulty built up the Internet.
  Internet which has made geography history. An Internet where physical
 boundaries have ceased to exist. But in the last few years, we have now started
 seeing a new trend.  A trend of an effort to build boundaries in this
 cyberspace medium.  With the result, what we are now finding is what was
 originally virgin, unchartered, borderless medium is today being chartered into
 nationalistic mediums as well. Now, that I think is, to one extent, a logical
 conclusion.  Why?  Because state governments and national sovereignty powers
 would consider that they also have a legitimate claim to that.  But as the
 youth, the netizens of the world who are using this, this is an area of big
 concern. What happens if there are going to be national boundaries?  Already we
 have precedents to that effect.  National laws impact cyberspace. And so much
 so that other countries have now gone ahead and started enacting laws which
 have extra-territorial jurisdiction.  A for instance, various countries have
 laws that actually says that so long as anything takes place on the Internet or
 on a computer, computer system or computer network, but if it impacts a
 computer within my own country, I will assume jurisdiction. That's one way of
 looking at it.  But it is also going to impede further the growth and
 development of the Internet per se.  I would like to have the thoughts of the
 panel, is this a healthy idea to try to put borders into an already borderless
 medium?  Or should something be done so as to ensure once this borderless
 medium has come into being, we should ensure that there are no further
 boundaries or borders in this medium for the benefit of mankind as a whole?

 >>NIRMAL BUSGOPAUL:  Thank you for your question.  I think we cannot have an
 open gate.  It's true the Internet was borderless and it is now being
 regulated. In my opinion I think the Internet should be controlled to some
 extent.  We should have some parameters, because such parameters, they are not
 against our benefit.  They are in favor of our benefit. Take, for example,
 e-commerce, doing transaction online.  If we don't have the laws that protect
 the consumers, the customers, then we can have argues.  So we I think we should
 have control, but too much control is not good.  So we need to have a balance
 between what to what extent we should control the Internet and to what extent
 we should let the gate open.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Well, number 5, are you here?  Okay.  Go ahead. Steve,
 would you like to make another comment?

 >>STEVE VOSLOO:  Yes, please. I think one must also consider who you are
 governing.  For any government, imposing laws and borders on its population, on
 its adult population, there is a certain level of education and an
 understanding that these borders are there for these reasons, and that is what
 you get in return.  This is in an idealistic world. But for youth online today,
 they are not conscious of that.  So they are expecting, by using Amazon, by
 using MySpace, by chatting, by SMS'ing, they want complete freedom and instant
 response and to be online when they can. So they are not going to -- If
 somebody puts up a border, it's really not obvious to them why that thing is
 there.  They see it as a problem, and the sooner that they can get around it,
 the better. So I think it's -- of course, there are reasons, at times.  But I
 think we need much more freedom.  This balance, the tension between the freedom
 and also the correct form of control.  But the youth are not going to play
 along nicely.  They will try and get around it or under it or over it. Thank
 you.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Well, do you want to answer as well?

 >>ITIR AKDOGAN:  Actually, my Ph.D. research is on the feature of e-citizens,
 and I am focusing on whether nationality will lose importance.  So even in
 today's world, nationalism is rising and in general people have this tendency
 of losing their nationality. So if for these people we have a tendency to lose
 their national identities, and the fade-out of nation states, et cetera.  So
 how can we put national boundaries on Internet?  It's just ridiculous.  We just
 can't.  We should not. Thanks.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  I think that I will now ask someone in the room to take the
 floor. Number 5, are you still out there?

 >>LEE HIBBARD:  Thank you. I am Lee Hibbard, Council of Europe.  Or over the
 last 6 to 12 months I have been very much involved in the empowerment of
 children in the information society.  And five weeks ago, the Council of
 Europe, the 46 states of the Council of Europe, adopted a recommendation, an
 instrument about the importance of empowering children on the Internet, with
 regard to their rights, with regard to problematic content, behaviors, cyber
 stalking, et cetera.  How to deal with that. First of all, I would like to
 thank the audience here.  I would like to thank you for coming to the IGF. I
 have been working with children and with young people on the question of
 empowerment in the Information Society.  It takes a lot of courage to get up
 there and talk, and I congratulate you for preparing and being here. So thank
 you very much, first of all. I read a study recently, I think it was a study in
 France.  I don't have the exact figures, but I read that children -- I don't
 know whether it was in France or a wider scale, that children's use of the
 Internet, children spend approximately 1,850 hours a year in front of -- in
 front of screens.  "screens" meaning TV screens, computer screens, et cetera.
 Something like 750 hours a year in front of their teachers. And approximately
 50 hours in front of their parents. It's quite staggering when you see the
 amount of time. I don't have the exact figures, but it's something like that.
 Some years ago -- Some days ago I read an article in the Financial Times about
 YouTube, MySpace, social networking sites.  And when I read the figures 25
 million users on social networking sites communicating, it's clear to me that
 one of the emerging trends is young people, in particular, are finding new ways
 to communicate.  They are changing the ways they communicate.  They are going
 to effect cultures and behaviors in the future. Social networking. And my
 question really is the following. With these changes in social networking, with
 these ways of communicating, where are we heading? I ask the question, where
 are we heading with the ways to communicate? If a child, if a young person
 doesn't have a mobile phone or if they don't have broadband access or limited
 access to the Internet, are they going to be socially excluded? You know, even
 where there is access, you know, it's a question I'd like to ask to the panel.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you. I think that we need to ask ourselves if that's
 true. And let's answer that question, although I think someone just before
 mentioned something about it.

 >>GBENGA SESAN:  Thank you for that question. I said something earlier about
 the danger of having a wider divide in the future. I'll tell you this, my space
 is very popular with young people, you would say. But if you tried asking a
 young person in an area in Lagos what MySpace is? He's going to look at you and
 wonder what you are talking about. The danger is already in our face. The truth
 is if we don't do anything about it now, it's not going to be a question about
 what will happen. It's already happening. The divide is already there. The 25
 million people you have online, you can look at a percentage of how many people
 are online in the global south. The danger is already there. There's a reason
 why, it sounds like every one of us is saying access. One other people talked
 about having access to access itself. Someone asked the question earlier and
 said what is one thing that if you have, you could be able to reproduce what
 you have for other people. It's access. If I have access to information and I'm
 empowered, it's just natural as a young person for me to pass it on. And the
 ripple effect keeps going on and on. For every young person on -- sitting in
 front of you today, the dream -- they dream projects because they've been
 inspired through access and people who have mentored them. The question is not
 exactly if what is going to happen. The fear is it's already happening.
 Division is already there. There are young people who cannot compete with their
 peers in other places in the world. And it's a very big danger that we need to
 address now, if possible, yesterday. Thank you.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you. I think we'll just now give the microphone to
 someone on the floor. I think that's --

 >> Thank you. My name is Titi, and I'm a young Nigerian. I pretend to be a
 young Nigerian. I had hoped I would avoid speaking this afternoon. Why? Two
 reasons. And Gbenga came in just in time to mention it. There's access, and
 there's access to access. I have been fortunate to have access. I have been
 fortunate enough to have the right people around to give me access to access.
 So if you would ask me, as a young person, not sitting on the platform, but
 speaking to you from someone listening to my colleagues, to young people who in
 one way or the other have made themselves what they are today is, in the next
 one year exactly, over the -- I think it was on Tuesday -- Tuesday or
 Wednesday, we sat with one of the fathers of the Internet. And he said, yes,
 it's good to be futuristic. But at the same time, you should be able to plan so
 that you can actually identify what you have done in the right direction
 towards that plan. Gbenga has mentioned the digital divide, it already exists.
 There are people who don't have a clue what we are doing here. Some of them are
 my friends. What would we like to see in Rio? I personally would like access to
 be taken forward. I'm not talking about access, addressing access in terms of
 the technical issues. Because unlike Diogo, I am not a technical person. I
 would like to see the issue about access to access. What do we mean by access
 to access? It's the social aspect. How it's my right, if I want to have access
 to the Internet and I want to express that all fat people are great, I should
 have the capability to do that. So it's the place of forums like this. We would
 like to see this in Rio, where we can bring not just to the floor, not just in
 terms of policy, not just in terms of government doing things, but a level
 playing ground where we don't have observers and we don't have governments and
 we don't have private sector all talking at different places, to come together,
 to make things happen for us. Why? Because the divide already exists. And if
 something is not done between now and Rio de Janeiro, we are going to be
 dealing with this when we reach your space. I don't know if I....

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you very much for this very passionate point. I think
 you were very clear, because, yes, this is a problem for countries from the
 south, as we call them. It's access, and access being a right, being part of
 your freedom of expression. So I would say that we go to the next point. We are
 now going to video conference with Chile.

 >> FLORENCIO ULTRERAS:  Good morning from Chile. I am afraid the sound keeps
 going. I am from south American universities, and I'd like to talk about
 access. What I'm worried about when people talk about access is that we're
 trying to say too many different things. What about phone access to the
 Internet? Is it different to broadband access to the Internet? And broadband
 access is different from country to country, because it depends on the telecom
 server serving that public. What we have to say is there are different levels
 of Internet in different countries. And this influences the content we have
 access to. So it's not a question of access or not, of having access or not
 having access, because I might have access and still not be able to have full
 access, because there is an underdeveloped Internet connection or an excellent
 Internet connection so we need innovation, so for that, we need good
 connections. This is an issue which is very worrying, because when we talk
 about Internet today, we want very advanced nets which will use innovative
 technology. And this innovation hasn't really been trickling down to the south
 rapidly enough. We have very serious problems in South America. For example,
 costs, cost is very high to connect to the Internet. And I think this is a
 problem we share with our African friends. Telecom in Africa and in South
 America is completely different to that in the north. And that's an aberration.
 So just if you tell you open up your markets, good access will be guaranteed.
 No, it's nothing to do with regulation. What we need, as somebody on the panel
 said, is money, money to get better telecoms and to be able to generate better
 access. And that's the point I wanted to make.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you for what you said from Chile. I'd like to ask
 people on the panel if they'd like it answer what they've just heard. Steve.

 >>STEVE VASLOO:  I -- sorry. I agree with the speaker. We've heard in the last
 few days this thing of one billion people have access. Having -- living in Cape
 Town, having just recently moved to Silicon Valley at Stanford University, I
 can tell you that there are varying degrees of access. And access means two
 different things to where you're based. At home, in Cape Town, I have a dialup
 connection, because I'm just not willing to spend so much money, it's so
 expensive to get broadband, although it is now recently available. Whereas, in
 America, it's practically free. So the one billion people who have access are
 not one homogeneous group. They are maybe -- I don't know the figures, but
 there are those who have good access, those who barely have access. And I think
 that also, just to go on Gbenga's point, the digital divide is here already. So
 we now -- we are now having to deal with splinter groups of the 25 million
 American youth who are using MySpace who are fairly tech-savvy, web-savvy. Then
 having to deal with the millions of youth who are only coming online now. And
 to consider the relationship between those two groups, I know in South Africa,
 mobile use is very high amongst youths, but camera phones, I've said this
 before in a panel, what's happening recently is that youngsters take pictures
 of each other naked and, to play a joke, circulate that, or, you know, you and
 your partner kind of take some pictures and then you break up and the next
 thing, they're out there. So there is kind of youth who are perpetrating these
 offenses against each other, and as you are getting these meeting spaces where
 they are experienced -- there are experienced new Internet youth from different
 countries, that's a dangerous place. So, really, again, the quicker that we get
 access, I mean, physical, good bandwidth going, and, of course, all the things
 that go with it, the better. Money is, of course, going to help. And I think
 different countries have different situations. But money definitely does help.
 Thanks.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you very much. Let's go back to the room now. 34 has
 asked for the floor. Number 34.

 >> Thank you for the opportunity to speak here.  And to the organizers of the
 emerging issues, this is a great opportunity to actually speak. And my name is
 Caroline Womala, and I'm a doctoral student in Sweden. And this issue has been,
 you know, hashed out several times during the last couple of days. But I'm also
 going to, you know, touch upon it. I would have liked to see as an emerging
 issue young ladies from the developing world representing their peculiar needs.
 Because research does demonstrate that they have more impediments gaining
 access than the boys. So this is just food for thought for Rio, for the future,
 that we need more women panelists to -- especially from the developing world,
 to express their problems better. Thank you. [ Applause ]

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Yes, I think that perhaps it's true to say that in many
 African countries, it's through these cyber cafes that in other countries you
 have contact between youth, but not so in Africa. But it's mostly males that
 sit in those cyber cafes. And perhaps that is a problem, an additional problem
 which we could reflect upon in terms of Internet connection. Now, I have number
 70, number 70. Number 78. No?

 >>PETER HELLMONDS:  Yes, thank you. I have already spoken today, so I want to
 be brief. There were at least twice comments on the need that there should be
 more money. And as a business representative, I must say, there is plenty of
 money in the world that seeks good investment opportunities. However, the other
 side of whoever is an investor, he sees two variables. One is the expected
 return. And the other is the expected risk. In order to improve the
 opportunities for investment in infrastructure, in Internet cafes, in access
 facilities, in e-learning capabilities, the more we want to improve that, we
 need to reduce the risks, and especially in some of the developing countries,
 where we already have an abundance of risk at the moment. So it's not the lack
 of money, but it's the abundance of risks that prevents investments in
 infrastructure development in developing countries. So I would like you to
 think about in the future, maybe for Rio, what can we do to reduce risks that
 still are in place in those countries so that we can actually improve
 investment in these countries. Thank you.

 >>GBENGA SESAN:  Thank you, say. I just wanted to say, this is -- I find it
 quite interesting talking about the risk and the fact that there is money. It's
 always, you know, interesting when you say, we need money, and someone says
 there's a lot of money. Now, if the problem is the risk, then I think there's
 an opportunity to have a relationship, a symbiotic relationship between the
 business community and the young people. The idea is this:  What are the risks
 that the businesses have already found? The people can take it upon ourselves
 to find out how to solve those problems. If we know what the risks are and we
 know what the solution is, then it looks like we're going to smile until Rio.
 Thank you. [ Applause ]

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you very much. Well, I think we can now go for
 another question, per video conference.

 >> No sound coming through at the moment. We do not have a sound link. I think
 perhaps we will have to change our procedure. We still do not have the sound
 feed that we need for interpreting purposes. We still do not have the sound
 feed that we need for interpreting purposes. The speaker is not sufficiently
 audible for interpreters to hear him.

 >> So I think in this particular section, we need to develop what is important
 perhaps to develop public areas where young people can actually participate and
 have access to Internet. And we know that there is --

 >> Interruption by the moderator. Interruption by the moderator.

 >> The public booth is a way in which anybody can -- coming off the streets can
 have access and use the internet. Also, we feel in terms of infrastructure in
 the rural areas, this is something which could provide access also to the
 farmers and people who live in the rural areas or anybody who so wished to have
 access so that communication can in fact be made to and from these individuals.
 And I think it's important to see what is being done in terms of sensitizing
 governments so that they do get the telephone companies to actually go out to
 the rural areas and to provide that access to the rural areas. Thank you.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I think most people
 didn't really have a full translation of what was being said for reasons of
 sound. But perhaps you got the gist of that comment. Any questions from the
 floor, please?

 >> Thank you very much. I think we just experienced a few minutes ago the title
 we would have for our Rio event, and that's access to access. So let's address
 these issues. Access to access, and I liked very, very much what the young lady
 from Nigeria said. There are so much facets which you have to address. And the
 financing, of course, is one of them. And we'd be more than happy in Rio to
 have a workshop, a panel to share tested experiences with financial schemes
 that are out there in various countries -- my background is Europe. I would be
 more than happy to share experience with education vouchers or education checks
 which are used in The Netherlands or Flander. You have tax breaks in some
 countries or incentives of all different kinds.  And these are experiences
 which should be shared. And the best of them may then be -- serve as a model
 for other countries to be copied. Now, having the next event in Rio is, of
 course, of extreme interest, because Brazil is the first country in the world
 which, by legislation, has introduced for every citizen a basic income, a basic
 income, renda basica, which is also used and focused for educational purposes.
 Isn't that an interesting concept to delve into that? As one of the very, very
 large numbers of other schemes to really address the financial needs, it's not
 only private investment and what Peter just said, of course is absolutely true.
 But there are many, many other forms of making the required resources available
 to allow not only small and medium-sized companies that never have the
 resources to train their own people. There are many young people who would like
 to get qualified, emerging technologies that would like to be qualified for
 media, literacy, one of these emerging issues, for the Web, too. All of this
 needs to be financed. So therefore, again, I would be very much interested to
 see a major panel or a workshop, happy to contribute that in Rio, sharing
 experiences and moving forward. Perhaps there is more to discover.  And we need
 also from the young generation some creativity here with new concepts of
 financial schemes to find the needed resources. Thank you very much.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  I'm going to go to 108, which has already asked for the
 floor. You have the floor, madam.

 >> Hello. I'm Walda Roseman. And I'm a good example to youth if you hang around
 long enough. And if you're lucky, it'll happen to you, too.  And this really is
 a preface to what I want to say. First of all, I want to thank all of you for
 being here, and also what you do behind your lives, and the projects that
 you're involved in. What you really are are social entrepreneurs. And it's not
 quite as easy to measure the risks and benefits. I certainly agree with what
 Peter said about investment and doing a risk-benefit or cost-benefit analysis.
 Well, it's not the same. But what I'd like to talk about a little bit, and
 we've heard shadows of it, is how you think you might or the IGF in Rio might
 advance access by youth to the ICT policy process. Since youth is fleeting, and
 each of you is going to move on, how does one -- how -- what should we be
 considering to -- so that there is a sustainable presence by committed young
 people, a sustainable and informed presence by young people as we move forward
 to 2015 and achievement of the Millennium Development Goals?

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you very much. Before I actually give the floor to
 the panelists, let's try and draw together the various strings. Put your
 questions as neatly and concisely as you can, so that we have time for the
 panelists to reply.

 >>ANTONIOS BROUMAS:  Since the title of our session is emerging issues, I think
 we should also focus to the object of our discussion, which is the Internet.
 And the Internet of tomorrow will not be the same as the Internet of today. I
 believe that the idea of the Internet we have is pretty much static. In my
 opinion, there will probably be not so many new technologies that will be
 invented. What will be new will be the combinations and the applications of
 existing technologies that will change the landscape. And, for example, there
 are some examples that give a picture of the future, like mobile technology,
 like WiMAX, which could finally give an answer to the problem of access and
 access to access by circumventing the local loop problem. And also the notion
 of the next-generation networks or the ubiquitous networks that come over and
 over again more and more often. So this change on the Internet will have, of
 course, an impact over the Internet governance debate. And I believe what we
 change in our debate in the future will not be the basic questions. The basic
 questions will remain the same. But what will possibly change will be the
 weight we put on each issue and the way we balance things. For example, I
 believe that the security issues will play a greater role in the future. After
 all, we live in the age of terrorism. And may ultimately lead to structural
 changes on the Net, which, of course, in my opinion, is not a welcome
 perspective, because the Internet is, in general, an open medium, and such
 changes might make it more closed and less accessible and maybe slower also.
 Thank you.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you. Diogo.

 >>DIOGO ANDRE ASSUMPCAO:  I have a really good proposition for the countries
 that are going to the IGF, which is something that we have been trying to do,
 in the phases of WSIS, which is, every country delegation that goes to the IGF
 next year should include one young person on their delegation. That's a very
 easy step and very simple. Just we need political will to do that.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Okay. There's also been a lot of questions about in terms
 of how access to the network today might encourage young people to actually
 become part of the democratic process. So how -- do you want to reply?

 >>GBENGA SESAN:  I just was thinking I should take Diogo's suggestion a step
 further by saying that instead of including one person, make it two, one young
 man, and one young woman. And talk -- it's great that we were asked two
 questions about youth. I think the question goes back, the area of policy is
 somewhere where governments play. I think it goes back to the sincerity of our
 purposes as people in government. I think we should ask this question:  It's
 funny that throughout time, through the WSIS process and other times, we keep
 speaking about some of these things and it looks like it's a cycle it, it's a
 declaration, we discuss it. How about when each delegation gets back home, they
 actually start involving young people as a matter of not trying to pacify them,
 but in sincerity. Because the truth is no country is sustainable if it does not
 invest in its young people. Look at any nation you respect today. Trace it
 back. It's because some young people were empowered at one point. And when
 we're speaking of access, there's the other side of talking about content. You
 can even have access, but the truth is, if you have access and I don't have
 access, it means you can dominate -- I mean content, when it comes to my
 opportunities to learn, I can't. And by the second question of saying how can
 we see sustainable and informed presence of young people, and I think the
 answer is, you know, quite straightforward, to say that we have countries and I
 know we have people on this sitting here who have already been on projects
 where they have training projects where they're training the next generation.
 Because we are conscious that young people should be empowered. What will
 people say when we get into positions where we can hear things. You have a
 ripple effect where you have young people involved and they can also talk to
 other young people.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you very much. Perhaps I can come back to the room. 
 169. 169.

 >>VASSILIOS MAGLARIS:  Yes, I would like to come back to the issue of funding
 the Digital Divide and so forth. There was my friend Florencio --  Can you see
 me now, my friend from Florencio from Chile?  I don't know if the video link is
 still on, but we know each other from some time ago when we had to establish a
 link between Europe and Latin America.  My name is Vassilios Maglaris and I
 represent the GEANT consortium. So what I would like to do, what we
 accomplished finally was to get this link, this moderate speed link between
 Europe and Latin America.  And I can give you not the exact price of that link
 but I can give you some other examples that I gave also yesterday. For
 instance, to interconnect the United States with Europe with 10 gigabits per
 second, it will cost you per year only 150,000 Euros, roughly. On the other
 hand, interconnect Istanbul with Athens at 622 megabits per second, it will
 cost you probably on the order of 1.5 to 2 million.  So you can see the Digital
 Divide exists, and especially when we are talking about high bandwidth, about
 the needs of the young, about the needs of the schools to get connected.  Then
 there is a problem of funding. And here, I don't see how the private sector is
 going to invest in something that does not have a direct return. So in this
 case, the way we did it already is that, for instance, the European Commission
 supported the Latin America to European link 80%, 20% came out of the Latin
 America taxpayers.  Once we do that, then we create a market, then we get
 connected to all schools in Latin America, then we create a market and then the
 private sector comes in as a partner to help. But we cannot really delete
 funding by the citizens, by the public sector, because those links are terribly
 expensive, and this is our experience so far. And if (saying name) is on the
 link, he can also say a few things on this particular link between Europe and
 Latin America.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Madam Maria Simon.  Over to you.

 >>MARIA SIMON:  Thank you.  I would like to go back to a couple of points and
 make an extra comment. I would like to just go back to the question that was,
 in fact, posed through Chile, through the video conferencing. I think it's a
 matter of the traditional scientific examples in terms of having free access
 and enabling scientific progress, and for everybody to be able to advance at
 the same time. And I do think that this concerns the developing countries.
 There is a different situation, because it's not simply a matter of them
 receiving the products or the fruits of growth elsewhere.  They basically have
 their specific needs.  They need to develop themselves, not simply to receive.
 So it's in this sense that the scientific world is not, in fact, sufficiently
 open.  And we, of course, know that you have to have your credit card number
 ready or pay your subscription if you want to have access to scientific
 knowledge.  And it is becoming more and more expensive, year by year. I think
 that one of the interesting concepts is to, in fact, provide this free access
 to the academic world.  And certainly we know that the academic world at the
 moment is in danger in terms of its financing. And, therefore, I think we
 should maintain financing for the scientific world in order to overcome these
 problems. I would also like to perhaps give this as an aside very briefly. We
 need to change the way that we teach. Right from the early age, all the way up
 to the university level. Because Internet is actually something which can help
 us change the way that we teach.  We have to shift from the traditional way of
 teaching and --

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Could you please put your question to the panel?  I think
 the point here is that the world of education has been revolutionized by the
 Internet, through access to it.  So can we notably in the universities take
 this on board?  Perhaps it's high time for us to review and revise the
 educational systems.

 >>ITIR AKDOGAN:  In fact, as we all know, we already have e-learning and all
 these e-programs for a while at university and it also enables people who
 cannot travel cannot travel to other countries for education, who sometimes
 cannot pay the fees.  So when it is online, sometimes cheaper and easier, et
 cetera. It can for sure change the education system, and not like the teacher
 speaking for hours and the students listening for hours but it's also the
 interaction between teacher and student. I want to go back to your question
 about how Internet can encourage people to participate more in democracy. And I
 will also link it to the gender question, which was not answered, in fact. So,
 of course Internet helps us to get more and more information.  So citizens are
 becoming more informed.  And when you are more informed, when you know what is
 going on in the other countries, in other systems, in other democracies, you
 are becoming more demanding from your own system.  So you are becoming active.
 It's easier to interact with the representatives, easier to communicate with
 them. I will not steal time but we have been doing research, actually, for the
 European Commission and we saw the profile of citizens who are interacting with
 the MPs is changing.  It's much diversified because it's easier, it's cheaper,
 and the citizens like that they can avoid the formal language.  Because it's
 like this informal, easy language in e-mail helps people to communicate easily.
 Even here, I took the advantage of being young and I didn't say all these nice
 words for money.  I just said we need money.  So it's a nice feeling to use
 informal language. So you interact more with representatives.  You know more. 
 You have more information.  Even if you have all this information (inaudible)
 and everything.  So you become more active and you participate more, because
 you have something to say, and you want a better system, a better democracy
 from your own representatives, because you know the better models. And if you
 are all becoming e-citizens, so I will link it to the gender issue, if in the
 future we are all e-citizens, then we really should not have any gender issue
 in our agendas in the future because then we'll go back to action times when
 women are not included in the democracy which we don't want.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Do you think we'll make that?  Is it possible to do it? Do
 you think we could have a sexual e-citizens?

 >>ITIR AKDOGAN:  Why not?  If they lose nationality, they can lose gender as
 well.  We can always think about the future and anything can happen.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Well, I'll give the floor now to someone in the room. Mr.
 Chile, are you there?  I think you have asked for the floor but you haven't
 made quite clear what your comment is going to be about. Excuse me.  Excuse me.
  No, well, what I meant to say is we are going to Chile. Well, I'd like to see
 that later on because it's not possible to do it right now.  Maybe the experts
 could help us. The interpreters keep telling us that they can't hear a thing [
 Laughter ]

 >> There's still no sound coming through to the interpreters' booth.

 >>FLORENCIO ULTRERAS:  We do have a specific issue here, which is not just
 financing for concrete projects or for revenue from projects, but what the
 problem would be for the future is whether a project is revenue bearing or not.
 Well, I'm happy that you gave me the opportunity to speak to you here.  And I
 agree totally with what has been said by previous speakers.  It's very
 expensive to have access. Sometimes, there's no open access to teaching
 material, which is why I would like to applaud the initiative which wants to
 give us free access to content and to teaching material, because we need access
 not just to technical tools but also to scientific journals, which is the only
 way forward. Free access is the only way forward for the Internet.  Because in
 the southern countries, we have very little access to scientific journals and
 for developments included in these texts.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  We're sorry, the interpretation didn't come through.  But
 the sound was awful.  I have said that.  And we still have ten minutes at our
 disposal, so you are the next speaker.  You have the floor.

 >>BILL WOODCOCK:  I'm sorry, this is not quite as topical as at the beginning
 of the session, but I would like to address a misconception, I think. There's a
 lot of use of the word access here.  And I think people are using it in a very
 20th century, economics of deprivation sort of way, as a noun, as a thing that
 can be given and taken away. In the Internet, access is a verb.  We are
 building the Internet.  We create access through our labor.  It's not something
 that someone can give you.  It's not something someone can give me. I
 definitely access the Internet.  I have 48 strands of dark fiber into my house.
  And this is because I put on gloves and climb about and pulled the fiber. 
 It's not something that someone can give me.  And it's not something that I can
 give someone else. But I work every day to help people access the Internet and
 help other people make that happen for themselves. But we can't take the
 passive voice here.  It's something that we have to do, not something that we
 can be given. [ Applause ]

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Thank you.  And we also have another question on that. You
 come from different countries on our panel.  And we have traveled to other
 countries so the question is when looking for access to the net, what would be
 of interest to young people in your country?  We have a panel here which has
 various interests, but tell me, what are young people interested in when
 accessing the net?  Now let's do this starting from you.  We'll do a
 geographical tour of the panel.

 >>TITI AKINSANMI:  On our work in Mauritius, we have cyber cafe.  One of the
 major issues was online gaming and chat.  Chat was an issue that came up most
 often, and young persons were more willing -- they are more engaged with chat
 session, in chat session.  Having relatives in different countries who prefer
 to chat rather than use the telephone. Chat is also very common in Mauritius to
 have friends, to make friends.  The means of communication.  It is a means to
 communicate.  And about online gaming.  This is taking a different stand in
 Mauritius.  Now we are witnessing more young person involved in online gaming.
 So for now, in Mauritius, in the southern part of Africa, online gaming and
 chat session are very common.

 >>ANTONIOS BROUMAS:  Well, in Greece, actually, I believe that in general we
 lack education in terms of the Internet yet.  Or at least now we are starting
 to develop and follow the rest of the European Union. I believe that most
 people in -- like most people, like most young people, we use the Internet to
 surf and (inaudible) content.  Of course, I would be a liar if I would say it's
 always with legal ways.  But also, we use it with a number of other very
 constructive ways, like we build communities, we have blogs.  And, yes, I
 believe in general, in these positive aspects of the net, that somebody that
 starts using this medium, of course in the beginning he uses it for basic ways,
 like to read the news.  But as he proceeds, he use it in more interactive ways.
  And he also surfs content.  With others, he also participates and in general,
 he becomes more active.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Okay.  Let's go on, because we don't have very much time.
 So Diogo, what does -- what interests young people in your country?

 >>DIOGO ANDRE ASSUMPCAO:  Well, everything.  When someone accesses the
 Internet, he can ask everything.  So it's the same thing, I really can't know
 -- I don't know how many million young people we have in Brazil, but I am
 pretty sure that each one of them has a specific interest that he goes to the
 Internet for.  So some go chatting, some go, I don't know, building blogs,
 posting pictures, or porn, probably.  And everything.  Everything.

 >>HIMANSHU KALRA:  I believe it's e-mail, probably, the speed of -- I believe
 it's e-mail, probably the speed of communication that we have using Internet. 
 So e-mail is one, and (inaudible) resources is probably what we look for.  News
 is another thing that youth is -- our youth, most of the people are looking for
 on the Internet.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Steve.

 >>STEVE VOSLOO:  Okay.  If I can please pass on answering that question, I
 think my colleagues have said what I was going to say. I would just like to
 pick up on two points very quickly, please. On access, there are cases in
 Africa, many well-known cases around the world of -- of technology dumping
 where you give somebody something and you think it's the best thing in the
 world for them and it's sitting there collecting dust. And that isn't the
 solution.  But I don't think that everybody has the option to create their own
 access. And I, like Desmond Tutu, coming from South Africa, and he said
 something that was:  Most South Africans don't need a handout but they need a
 leg up.  And we need to find ways to provide access without just dumping it on
 people.  But if you are living on less than a dollar a day, it's going to be
 hard to justify getting that. Lastly, thank you for the comment about a
 sustainable youth forum.  It wasn't really covered, but I support that and out
 of necessity, also, I'm the one on the youth panel who isn't so youth anymore. 
 And even by the most liberal definition, I am 35.  My time is coming.  So....
 Yeah.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Itir.

 >>ITIR AKDOGAN:  Okay.  So e-mail still remains the feature of Internet, I
 think, in the world, everywhere.  So this is the case in Turkey, too. A few
 years ago, I am not able to give any figures recently, but we had a survey, and
 contentwise, apart from the e-mail, contentwise, girls were using e-mail for
 searching for information, and guys, boys, they were using it mostly for gaming
 and porn. Yeah. Thanks.

 >>GBENGA SESAN:  For Nigeria, I will say three things.  One is e-mail, two is
 work creation, and third one is combination of education, information and
 entertainment.  Basically those three things.  But of course mostly e-mail.  An
 average person going to the cyber cafe is going to browse and spend time, and
 more often than not, if you check e-mail addresses of ten young Nigerians in
 the room, nine of them will be using Yahoo!.  So mostly e-mail.  Making money
 online is a very big topic in Nigeria today. [ Laughter ]

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  This is a point young people all around the world have in
 common. Well, I'm afraid that we have to bring this to a conclusion. I'd like
 to give the floor to our secretary-general because I think maybe he will have a
 few announcements to make. And I'm sure that you listened with great attention
 to the remarks of all these young people.

 >>SECRETARY KUMMER:  I have a very basic announcement to make. When we finish
 this panel, there will still be the closing ceremony, but we will need a few
 minutes to set up the podium with the speakers.  And as they have not been
 announced beforehand, I can tell you who the speakers will be.  Obviously the
 closing ceremony will be chaired by Minister Liapis, the Greek Minister of
 Transport and Communications.  We have Mr. Desai who will speak first, then we
 have the head of the Brazilian delegation, Augusto Cesar Gadelha Vieira.  And
 speaking on behalf of the internet community, Adiel Akdogan, the CEO of the RIR
 for Africa, AfriNIC.  We have David Appasamy, Chief communications officer of
 Sify Limited, India, speaking for the business community.  And Jeannette
 Hofmann, sitting here, will be speaking for civil society.  And the last word
 will be Minister Liapis. So when we adjourn here, please don't leave the room
 or go too far away.  We hope to start at 5:00 sharp.  And we promise that the
 ceremony will be short and sweet.  Thank you.

 >>AFAF BELHOUCHET:  Okay, well I will now give the floor to the chairman of
 this session because we would like to hear his concluding remarks.

 >>CHAIRMAN TSANAKAS:  Thank you.  A lot of issues have been raised, so it is
 very hard for me to summarize all the views that have been heard here. I just
 try to put the most important issues that have been raised. First of all, we
 have been -- we have heard a little about access control.  That is becoming
 more important as online content outpaces traditional non-electronic media
 content education has been considered of paramount importance for all the
 people, and for best exploitation of the impressive technological developments
 that are still appearing in the IP and electronic communications world.
 Flexible intellectual property rights issues have been also of paramount
 importance that guarantee and secure creativity and at the same time preserve
 accessibility for the vast majority of the young users. The preservation of the
 sustainable development via sustainable innovation is also very important and
 should be served by the educational system of our societies. The best practices
 and successful models of creating novelty products are very important to be
 taught at the -- in a systematic way in all the stages of education. Another
 issue, another point is that there still exists fears that the Digital Divide
 is not shrinking, but instead it is widening, in all the aspects of the divide,
 Digital Divide, in both regional scale, in social scale, and also in -- at the
 gender scale. So universal access to the Internet may be considered to be
 declared as a primitive human right for the next generation. Beyond access, we
 have to have the new culture of e-citizenship, and adopt democratic
 institutions for the new digital era. Also, the challenge of the safe access to
 the young children is very important for the children of all generations. And
 also, we have to admit that the views and the needs of the young people should
 be treated more seriously as they perceive the modern issues, the modern
 information technology issues and modern social issues in a rather different
 way than the earlier generations. I have to thank all the panelists for being
 here and expressing their views.  And also, our superb moderator, and all of
 you who have been here and participated in this successful event. Thank you. [
 Applause ]